tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5241063190450464888.post3575010292333531073..comments2024-01-06T18:34:30.188-08:00Comments on I Witness: Gil Evans: Here 4A WeillIWitnessEdhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18312808828448124509noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5241063190450464888.post-5829382839119152762011-09-26T08:42:51.985-07:002011-09-26T08:42:51.985-07:00I didn't make my populist orientation explicit...I didn't make my populist orientation explicit, but I think it's pretty clear. The point in doing this stuff is so that interested parties can see it or hear it. <br /><br />I don't think that the argument about the incorrigibility of academics can be settled between me and AK, but I do think it's worth trying to get a reality test. I think we can agree that at least some good stuff has come from academia. Robin Kelley's "Monk," for example.<br /><br />Weill is among the rare breed that can do something interesting in the traditional song form and also do the higher brow stuff. I haven't heard everything, but for me, Mahagonny is the top of his game.Steve Provizerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09757505876939504133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5241063190450464888.post-10805765954910718452011-09-25T20:41:05.280-07:002011-09-25T20:41:05.280-07:00Jeez, Alan, parse as you will, i kind of thought w...Jeez, Alan, parse as you will, i kind of thought we all agreed that Jazz needs a boost, however that's to be accomplished. In academia, in coffee shops, on line, off color, after midnight, by the dawn's early light... just let it happen. Put the Umbrage pills back in the drawer; have a beer or a martini (I'm buying) and work on the solution: a second book, fewer colleges offering stolid Jazz degrees, an alternate recording industry, mini-tape decks handed out to musicians to further dictation of their life stories... or a better and realistic idea that you have and I don't. <br /><br />And just for laughs, any thoughts on Weill?IWitnessEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18312808828448124509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5241063190450464888.post-43472787204678251412011-09-25T19:39:56.529-07:002011-09-25T19:39:56.529-07:00I think you're both being obstinate. Of course...I think you're both being obstinate. Of course I did not examine all 2 million Google results. Nor did I suggest that the picture is rosy. I merely pointed out that there are already lots of jazz oral histories.<br /><br />Are most of them publicly available online? Neither of you previously mentioned that criterion. I got the impression that Ed just wants more stories "from the older guys." And while Steve said that such oral histories ought to be compiled by the academic community, he did not specify where—if at all—those should be published. I accordingly inferred that you both had in mind documents that would necessarily reside in institutional archives to be pored over by scholars.<br /><br />If your goal is to simply collect oral histories from aging jazz artists <i>as a tribute</i> to their musical accomplishments, those documents might as well reside in paper archives gathering dust.<br /><br />However, if you're now saying that the Provizer/Leimbacher Oral History Project should be hosted online, then I'm more convinced than ever that accredited academics are the worst possible choices to write those stories. That's because posting on the Internet is only 50% of making them accessible; the other half, equally important, is a matter of style. Oral histories written by academics who, as Steve puts it, "have some kind of sinecure" will do little to promote jazz to the general public. Scholars speak to other scholars, not to ordinary people.Alan Kurtzhttp://subversivetv.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5241063190450464888.post-14111029158954888192011-09-25T15:56:42.731-07:002011-09-25T15:56:42.731-07:00Of the people I listed, 6 were black and 3 were wh...Of the people I listed, 6 were black and 3 were white. <br /><br />My point was that the "jazz academic community" should stop churning out turgid, self-referential material and do something useful. AK seems to say that all they can do is boring dreck, so why bother to even make a point of it. These bios never sell enough to support a writer. It seems eminently reasonable to try to get people who are invested in jazz and have some kind of sinecure to undertake it.<br /><br />The picture out there is far from a rosy one if you look closely. Ya go to the Tulane archive-there are a whole bunch of names listed and no links. Ya go to the Rutgers site and there's a bunch of people listed and almost no links. Ya go to the Smithsonian site and they have a grand total of 36 interviews. Ya go to U. of Chicago. They have about 30 people listed and no links.Steve Provizerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09757505876939504133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5241063190450464888.post-15316821179565571002011-09-25T09:05:03.377-07:002011-09-25T09:05:03.377-07:00OK, AK, now you get the "well said"--as ...OK, AK, now you get the "well said"--as always, you've done the homework and research to back up your remarks, while I as always postponed any evidence gathering.<br /><br />But "2 million results"? Did you also examine them all to eliminate the nearly 2 million typical duplications included? Were there any names on either quick list that had not been given the OH opportunity? Just as lief start with them. <br /><br />No one can convince me we don't need to hear from the older guys as much as possible, even if already signed in at some academic collection. We need their stories, they deserve the attention, Jazz needs the publicity... some of which might help attract those readers and listeners that Jazz also needs.IWitnessEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18312808828448124509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5241063190450464888.post-64071738749394096652011-09-25T01:59:43.560-07:002011-09-25T01:59:43.560-07:00What intrigued me about Steve's first comment ...What intrigued me about Steve's first comment was the insinuation of racism: "the history of jazz musicians (especially black ones) has remained grossly under-investigated." Yet when asked to name names, each of you includes several white artists. So I guess racism isn't really key.<br /><br />Rather, what you'd like to see is more oral histories of aging musicians by, as Steve puts it, "the jazz academic community." That's the part that strikes me as dull. I've read some of their work. It puts me to sleep. As much as I love all the artists you list, an oral history of any of them by a card-carrying member of the jazz academic community is a recipe for tedium.<br /><br />Moreover, you haven't done your homework. Ed includes Frank Wess and Roy Haynes among his candidates for oral history. Yet each is already a part of the Smithsonian Institution's <a href="http://www.smithsonianjazz.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=22&Itemid=114" rel="nofollow">Jazz Oral History Program</a>.<br /><br />Steve laments the absence of oral histories for, among others, Doc Cheatham and Sweets Edison. Yet each is represented in the <a href="http://newarkwww.rutgers.edu/IJS/interviews.html" rel="nofollow">oral history project</a> at the Rutgers Institute of Jazz Studies.<br /><br />Let's get real, fellas. A Google search for "jazz oral histories" yields over 2 million results!<br /><br />How many more do we need?<br /><br />If only there were 2 million <i>readers</i> interested in jazz, then we writers would be getting somewhere. Or, hell, 2 thousand, for that matter.<br /><br />What am I saying? I'd settle for 200!Alan Kurtzhttp://www.amazon.com/Stereotypes-Black-Music-African-American-Compromise/dp/1453853669/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1291054567&sr=1-1noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5241063190450464888.post-84645002331931028012011-09-24T20:06:33.589-07:002011-09-24T20:06:33.589-07:00Sounds like a rhetorical response to me. Dull? Rea...Sounds like a rhetorical response to me. Dull? Really? Look at just the trumpet players we've missed the deadline on just in the last dozen years-Doc Cheatham, Woody Shaw, Nat Adderly, Sweets Edison, Art Farmer, Red Rodney, Conti Condoli, Ruby Braff, Freddie Hubbard, Maynard Ferguson. <br /><br />As noted, there are still people around who have seen much in their long careers...Steve Provizerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09757505876939504133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5241063190450464888.post-37973470045143592052011-09-24T17:19:26.713-07:002011-09-24T17:19:26.713-07:00A-ha! I thought a bland response, if anything, wou...A-ha! I thought a bland response, if anything, would flush out the elusive Kurtz. Well, Alan, it's good to hear your tender snarl once more. Can't speak for Steve, but as in the case of most of the originators of the Blues, who died before the Robert Johnson boom woke many fans and scholars, so too are the elders of Jazz nearly gone, with succeeding generations being winnowed as well. Of course no one needs more aimless reshuffling of the Pops and Duke data, but why not compile oral histories for folks like Curtis Fuller, Ellis Marsalis, Frank Wess (?), Blossom Dearie (?), Paul Motian, Charles Lloyd, Roy Haynes, John Handy, Roswell Rudd, and many many more? (And I freely admit that my instant list, unchecked, may well include some who are gone already, so too late to gain their stories.) Of course, you are likely just epateing us bourgeoisieses as is often your wont... so how did you like the play otherwise, Mr. Kurtz?IWitnessEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18312808828448124509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5241063190450464888.post-18061820817234402392011-09-24T16:01:49.097-07:002011-09-24T16:01:49.097-07:00I'm not sure I agree that "the history of...I'm not sure I agree that "the history of jazz musicians (especially black ones) has remained grossly under-investigated." Which musicians do you gentlemen have in mind?<br /><br />Surely we don't need yet another bio of Louis or Duke—there must be hundreds by now. And apart from being an exercise that advances a scholar's career, what purpose would be served by "nitty-gritty oral historical/reportorial work" from the jazz academic community?<br /><br />It's hard to think of anything more dull.Alan Kurtzhttp://subversivetv.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5241063190450464888.post-7322735341499422152011-09-24T11:16:32.651-07:002011-09-24T11:16:32.651-07:00Hear, hear, and well said. I hope other folks hear...Hear, hear, and well said. I hope other folks hear, hear, and take heed.IWitnessEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18312808828448124509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5241063190450464888.post-9766031329522703962011-09-24T09:13:54.645-07:002011-09-24T09:13:54.645-07:00Nice. It's always interesting to conjecture ho...Nice. It's always interesting to conjecture how much is "in the air," to be developed by different musical minds. The word "viral" seems obvious now, in this Facebooked and Tweeted environment, but there has always been some (more ineffable) process of cross-pollination.<br /><br />The history of jazz musicians (especially black ones) has remained grossly under-investigated. While many if not most of the protagonists of that era are dead, some of them are still with us. I'd like to see the jazz academic community grind out less meta-level "textural analysis" and get down to some nitty-gritty oral historical/reportorial work.Steve Provizerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09757505876939504133noreply@blogger.com